EP 232: Urban Outfitters Masters Strategic Innovation

Guest: Sandy Stein, founder of Retail Speak, and TRR contributor

What makes a retail brand resilient? It starts with visionary leadership that sees the business holistically balancing merchandising expertise and creativity with financial discipline. Urban Outfitter CEO and founder Richard Hayne has a merchant-first mentality and leads the organization with strategic pivots to align with changing consumer preferences while maintaining brand integrity. 

Join Shelley and strategic visionary Sandy Stein as they discuss how Urban Outfitters has maintained a customer-centric culture, showing patience in stark contrast to aggressive scaling models that have led many other retailers to overexpansion and subsequent painful contraction. Surviving a series of market disruptions, like Amazon's and Walmart’s fashion plays into the contemporary market, Urban Outfitters has remarkable agility in navigating both headwinds and tailwinds. It stands as a compelling case study in adaptive strategy and vertical integration. 

Listen and learn how Hayne’s holistic approach to brand management, built on merchandising expertise rather than pure financial orientation, delivers a sustainable future for Urban Outfitters.

For more strategic insights and compelling content, visit TheRobinReport.com, where you can read, watch, and listen to content from Robin Lewis and other retail industry experts, and be sure to follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter.

Transcript

Transcript by Descript:

The store is behaving differently. You don't need as many of them because 

where you buy is not necessarily, uh, or how you buy is not necessarily 

gonna be at that store. But that store has to be a showcase. It has to be a, 

uh, an experience, and it has to. Be a point of brand engagement. Retail 

Unwrapped is a weekly podcast hosted by Shelly Kohan from the Robin 

Report.

Each episode dives into the latest trends and developments in the retail 

industry. Join them as they discuss interesting topics and interview industry

leaders keeping you in the loop with everything retail. Hi everybody, and 

thanks for joining our. Weekly Podcast Retail Unwrapped. I'm Shelly Cohan 

and I'm so excited to welcome Sandy Stein, also known as Sanford Stein.

Sandy Stein hyphen Sandy Stein. You have a lot of names, Sandy. That's all 

I can say. It's, it's, it's easy to keep track of. I keep my driver's license close 

by at all times. I love it, but you are one of our esteemed writers at the 

Robin Report. You also are the founder of Retail Speak. So for those of you 

that don't know retail Speak, check it out and, uh, we're gonna have a great 

conversation today.

We're gonna talk about one of, one of our favorite brands, who's been 

around a long time, urban Outfitters. But Sandy, before we jump into our 

conversation, what I'd love to do is tell the listeners about my Passion 

project that I've been working on. Uh, for the past year plus. Um, but as you

could tell, I have a lot of energy about it.

But you know, those moments, Sandy, when you witness pure wisdom that 

deserves a much bigger audience. That's exactly, I wish, I wish I knew that 

more often, but go ahead. Well, luckily, because I'm a professor, I would 

invite guests into my classroom and these guests would come in the 

classroom and they would have these brilliant game changing insights and I

would say, oh my gosh, that was amazing.

And then I'd look around the room and it's like 27 students and I kept 

thinking to myself. I need to amplify this. I need to reach thousands, not 

dozens. And so we've created Lead Like Her Lead, like Her is a video 

interviews broadcasting through the Robin Report. We just launched 'em a 

few weeks ago. The response has been really incredible and each week we 

feature a deep dive conversation with exceptional leaders.

So these resources are supporting students in FI's leadership classes, and 

best of all, they are completely free. For any passionate person that wants 

to hear about retail leadership. So my other kind of passion goal is to lower 

ed educational costs for students and providing greater access to these 

great stories.

So it's all about democratizing wisdom and bringing these powerful stories 

to everyone who wants to grow as a leader. So don't miss out every Tuesday

through May 6th. So anyway, I'm, I'm promoting it on retail speak. Oh, 

you're, thank you so much, much. Absolutely, absolutely. Oh, that's great. 

That's great. We have, uh, Amy Eric coming up.

She's the CEO and, uh, founder of Madison Reed, and she has an amazing 

story. So, anyway. All right. So today, Sandy, we are gonna be talking about 

Urban Outfitters. Tell me, just gimme a rundown on your quick insights 

about the company. Well, it's very interesting. Uh, I've been watching them 

for about as long as, uh, I've been, uh, writing and, and in retail.

And in fact my first, uh, real interest, uh, had to, uh. Surrounded their 

introduction of, uh, terrain, uh, which is a, a not well known, uh, entity, one 

of their, uh, you know, handful of, of brands, uh, which first launched in the,

uh, in the early aughts. Uh, and, um, it is a passion project. Speaking of 

passion projects, a passion project of, uh.

Of the founder of, um, uh, urban Outfitter's, founder, uh, Richard Hayne. 

Um, and, uh, the, it, it happened at the time that I was, uh, doing work for a 

local, uh, Minneapolis, one of the large, uh, local, uh, uh, garden, uh, and 

floral, uh. Companies and I had done a retail prototype for them. And then 

outta the left field, a friend of mine who's tied to the venture capital, uh, 

industry, uh, started, uh, telling me about a, a potential other development 

that was going to become much larger than a a, a local or regional.

Uh, so, um, that synced up like. Right at the time of the first store. So I, I, 

uh, started checking out, uh, terrain and, uh, getting up to speed. And, uh, 

lo and behold, I jumped on an airplane, ran out and, and, uh. I, I don't know 

how I pulled it off, but a good fortune would have it that, uh, I was actually 

able to interview, uh, uh, Richard Hane for, uh, a bit of time, and that was, 

uh, quite an, quite an interesting wow for me.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's amazing. So tell our listeners, te Terrain. What did 

Terrain originally sell? Uh, terrain is in fact still, uh, in operation and um, it 

launched in 2008. There are only about six stores, uh, but it's a very 

upscale, immersive garden experience. And, um, they deal with plants like a

gallery, deals with.

Art or, or a museum. Uh, the didactics fancy name for graphics, um, are 

incredibly interesting. It's indoor, it's outdoor, it's very upscale, it's very 

experiential. It's very much the future of, of retail and like everything else. 

My experience that, uh, urban Outfitters does, um, it does it, it does that 

really, really well.

And I don't know that there are big plans for, uh, more of them. Uh, they 

don't even break out the, uh, uh, that particular channels, uh, you know, 

specific, uh, financials. Yeah. Uh, but it's, um, it's, it's, it's very much worth 

a trip if you're anywhere, you know, near, uh, one of, one of the terrains. 

Um, but the, um. Uh, I think that what, uh, piqued my interest recently is, 

um, uh, actually goes back to an article of our, um, uh, of our, uh, cohort, of 

our, uh, friend and contributor, um, that, uh, was talking about, uh, the, um.

Uh, challenges that urban was, uh, that urban was having, uh, with, um, uh,

the, uh, change that was going on. Um, I should, should give her her, her 

due. We're talking about, uh, uh, Jasmine, uh oh. Yes. Uh, uh, did an article 

about three years ago on, on Robin Report and, uh, she talked about the 

disconnect between, um, the, uh, attempts to market.

Around, uh, the, um, uh, gen Ys and into the Gen, into the Gen Zs where 

Gen Y are the millennials prior to, uh, the, uh, pandemic, um, were very. 

Kind of well-defined. And as we morphed into Gen Z, that became a very 

different target. And yeah. Um, and, uh, urban Outfitters, the, the, and, and 

it's always confusing to talk about Urban Outfitters because it's the name of 

the corporation, right.

And it's also the name of their largest brand. Right. So, um, urban was 

losing traction and, um, as recently as, uh, last year, uh, about third or 

fourth quarter, uh, one of Urban's, uh. Uh, people on a, on an, on a, um, on 

interest, on a, uh, call on a, you know, for a quarterly call, earnings call. 

Earnings call. Uh, you, you and I, we'd love to sit on the earnings calls.

Yeah. You learned so much. That's right. They made the statement that, um,

they have really lost. Uh, a, the knack of dealing with that, you know, 

dealing with, uh, with Gen Z because of the differences and, and as we all 

know, you and I kind of into demographics and they sometimes. Compliment

one another. They sometimes conflict with one another.

So that was becoming a problem for, um, uh, for, uh, urban Outfitters. 

Meantime, uh, their, um, uh, other core brands, uh, had been doing very, 

very well and continue to do very, very well. Uh, free people is doing well. 

Uh, newly is doing incredibly well. And for those that are not familiar with 

newly, newly is urbans, uh, rental, uh, um.

Channel and stores, uh, or a label. And it has become a huge growth, uh, 

element for, uh, for, for urban. And, and it's great because they, and I think,

uh, I know you wrote an article about this, which is coming out soon, but, 

um, they, it's, they're lucky because they came in this rental market after 

already learning.

From all the past mistakes of everyone else that actually didn't do it right or

didn't do it well, or tried it and got out of it. So they, they hit that market, I 

think, at the right time. Exactly. And that, and that leads into, uh, the kind 

of the core story of the article of, uh, around their newest brand, which is 

being really kind of under the radar.

You, you really can't find out too much about eclectic, uh, unless you're. 

Unless you know about it, you're really looking about it. I think that they are

probably thinking it's in beta, uh, because, um, unless you search 

specifically, I. You wouldn't know that it's out there. Uh, and what's 

interesting about eclectic, aside from the fact that, um, it is really focused 

on resale, uh, it is, uh, the vertical integrated solution to what happens to 

the newly product when it's no longer new and cannot be.

Uh, rented again. And so they have, uh, enabled not only that product to 

find new homes, but they are using the newly developed, uh, eclectic as an 

outlet for. Selling the newly brand and selling the rest of their, um, labels, 

uh, that are either overstocked, damaged, or, uh, you know, they want to rid

the, uh, uh, uh, moving through the channel without having to do a lot of 

discounting.

The core stores to keep. I love that. So, so they've essentially, and you'll 

find, you're gonna love this term I use 'cause I don't even know if we use it 

anymore. Uh, they, they actually became their own jobber. Right? Exactly. 

Exactly right. They've created their own kind of way. And I wanna go back 

to something Jasmine said, which I think is true of not just Urban Outfitters.

But I, I don't know if you remember this, but when, when millennials were 

coming, the bigger purchasing power. Mm-hmm. I swear to God, Sandy, we 

spent like 10 years studying millennials. Like I, I just, we spent so much 

time and then Gen Zs just sort of appear, I. Right. And the same thing's 

happening with Gen Alpha.

Like I don't think we're spending enough time now understanding Gen 

Alpha, who, you know, joins the workforce this year and will become a very 

large purchasing power. So I, you know, there was a bit of a drop there. I. 

So I think that now that they're coming out with, it's interesting, these lines 

that you're talking about.

Yeah. They really are geared toward that young Gen Z and Gen Alpha. This 

is the type of merchandise they're gonna be looking for. Exactly. And I think

the other thing that's really interesting about, uh, eclectic is that there, 

there are, now there are four stores operating. Currently, and there's one 

more, um, in, um, uh, planning, uh, that, that is, uh, going to be, I think 

Texas, if I'm not mistaken, um, that, um, is, is is on the radar.

Um. These stores are becoming events generated by social media and the, 

uh, the, the TikTok buzz that is being created by people who are aware of it.

Uh, the last opening, most recent opening of, uh, of eclectic was in, um, Fe 

early February. And they had, um, uh, Disney like, uh, queuing through a 

whole parking lot that had people blocks long waiting to get into this new.

This newest store. And, uh, I, I think they knew they had, they had a hot, 

they had a hot brand when they first tested it, which was late, middle to 

late, uh, uh, 23, and they sold out most of the product in 24 hours. That's 

crazy. So, yeah, it's, it's a very cool concept and, um. I think that one of the 

things, there are a number of things that makes Urban Outfitters just such a

great brand, a it's, it's their founder who to this day is still very involved.

He's a merchant first. He under, I know. He understood. It's so important. 

It's absolutely is. He understands merchandising and just like his passion 

project, uh, terrain, um, he manages growth in a way that's just very, very 

brilliant. Um, they learn. Uh, like you, you mentioned, um, before they 

launched eclectic, they watched the, uh, pure play, uh, rental companies, 

you know, rise and fall.

And they knew that they had a better way to do that because of their 

vertical integration, because it was goods that they were controlling and 

because they knew that it would be a win-win across all of their, uh, across 

all of their, all of their brands. The other thing that's really interesting, a 

number of things that are really interesting about this eclectic, uh, uh, 

concept.

While it's very much like a, um, a factory outlet store, it's done much better.

It is. Um, and then they're not expensive. They're the, they don't do a lot of 

tenant improvement. They go into an existing store, they paint it, you know, 

they augment the lighting a little bit, maybe, uh, you know, just kind of 

clean things up.

They spend some nice, uh, money on signage, but the products are 

organized in such a way that they have. Um, three or four different color 

tags that tell the prospective buyer if it's been, uh, you know, if it's new, if 

it's slightly damaged, if it's, you know, so they have various grades so that 

you, you know, because the stores are big.

And they're chock full of, you know, of, of product. But you, you, you're, 

you're doing that wonderful treasure hunt, but you're doing it with little 

better information. Yeah. And I can tell you, I tell you, I know where they 

got their inspiration from. I don't know if you've been to a Rent the Runway 

store before, like a physical store, but I have not.

It, it's very difficult. And uh, to be honest with you, it to me, it didn't 

resonate. It didn't translate the experience of the online rent. Right? Yeah. 

So you go into a store and if you think about it, Sandy, you have a zillion 

different SKUs. So there's not really a mer visual merchandising. So you're, 

you're merchandising a lot of onesies, and so that makes it really difficult to 

begin with.

And the other thing that you just mentioned, which drove me nuts when I 

was shopping the store is. Understanding what's the price? Where's this at? 

Is it damaged? Is it not? Like it was so confusing. So it's great that they 

have tackled that consumer pain point. And, and I think that that will, that, 

that, that's going to help, uh, you know, deal with the movement of product 

and, and, and informing the customer.

It's also very interesting that there are no changing rooms in these stores 

and that they tell you right up hand as you'll walk in, you know, they tell you

to wear tight clothes and, uh, they also let you know that all sales are final. 

So there's nothing coming back. It's a real clean machine. Uh, yeah.

Well they're, they're just setting the expectation, you know, you're not 

gonna be able to try it on and you're gonna have to keep it. So once you 

come in, you know that. Exactly. You know, so it's a very clear expectation. 

Yeah. Yeah. I, I think it has the potential, uh, of becoming, um, you know, 

uh, you know, there, there are five.

Once this Texas store opens, there'll be five. I could easily see it becoming a

25, 30 store or more. Um, and I, I think that it is, uh, you know, it, it, it is 

just so much a demonstration of the holistic thinking that exists within that 

company. That, and the pivoting. The ability to pivot. Right. So, exactly.

When, when, when we talk about, so I wanna get your opinion on this, so 

mm-hmm. If you think about what Urban's been going through the past, you

know, I don't know, seven years or so. Mm-hmm. If you think about these, 

these things, they've had some real headwinds. Amazon's digital fashion. 

They've never been great at digital fashion, but now they're kind of working 

with sacks and they're getting a little better at fashion.

And then you have what I think is a real killer out there, and that's Walmart 

fashion. You got Denise Incandela. She is lighting it on fire for fashion for 

Walmart. They hired Brandon Maxwell. I mean, anyone in apparel that does,

you know, value fashion. Lookout, that's a big competitor. But then on the 

other side, urban has these tailwinds, you know, department stores are 

trying to figure out right sizing and getting smaller.

So they're trying to be a specialty store and you have, uh, a social media, 

which is I think a huge tailwind for them right now. They can really play 

into the whole, um, situation with social media. So I think that's gonna be a 

positive for them. So they now, so they're kind of pivoting really well right 

now, right?

I, I think they are, and, and I think that they manage, uh. Every aspect of 

those brands very well. And that said, um, they also, I mean, retail is, as you

know, and, and I'm sure you tell your students, and you, and you certainly 

tell your audiences, it's never been as difficult as it is and it's never been 

easy.

Uh, and certainly the compression that took place with. Uh, uh, with, uh, 

the pandemic and the, you know, the, the learning fast, failing fast, you 

know, California technology sort of term, right? That, that took place among

the really good retailers has differentiated them. And there are so many that

are. Still stuck and, uh, you know, haven't figured out what to do.

Uh, you know, Joanne's being the, the, the latest, uh, uh, failure or, you 

know, lack of, of, of appreciating or understanding where retail was moving 

so that they could advance their. Uh, their, uh, format, you know, and, and 

it just didn't happen. And yeah, it's very, very sad to see these names go, 

but, uh, you know, it's, it's, retail has always been evolutionary and in our, 

you know, in the last couple of decades.

It no longer is, it is revolutionary and I believe so. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's, 

it's taking, uh, it's, it's, it's becoming a completely different animal, but it's 

also clarifying and it's also improving itself because of the forces of change. 

Definitely. And I, I, I've always said, and I know I'm biased, I've been in the 

retail business since I was 18 years old.

Yeah. And I've always said this, but some of the smartest, brightest minds 

are in retail. It is such a complicated business. I don't think we get credit 

enough that retail's actually very complex. It, it really is. And I think that, 

uh, the, the, the biggest. Challenges have come from the origins. Going 

back to, you know, the beginning of the 20th century when retailers were 

merchants.

Right. They were selling merchandise and they knew that they had to keep 

a close watch on, you know, what was selling and being on the floor and 

talking to customers and, um. As some of these companies grew and 

became, you know, uh, public companies and people that went through 

business school, were running them and not necessarily, you know, 

understanding that it's still all about the customer.

Uh, yeah, a lot has been lost and I think that that culture at Urban has, um. 

Has, has, uh, remained and I got one up, up on you. I was selling, uh, selling

dollar and 10 cent rings in my parents' first store when I think I was 11 or 

12. Oh, no, no, no counter. No, no, no. I I can up you on upping me and 

here's what I'm gonna you, I, at seven years I.

Ran around my grandmother's soda shop in North Carolina, taking orders 

for customers and bringing food out. So that's true. Technically I've been, 

I've been in retail since I've been seven. Okay. Well, it's in our blood and, 

and I think that, uh, that is certainly something that keeps us engaged and 

interested.

Definitely. So, so Sandy, I wanna go back to something you said earlier. 

Before we close out. You had mentioned about the namesake brand, urban 

Outfitters. Mm-hmm. So before we leave today, can you kind of just give our

audience and listers your view on what is happening with the namesake 

brand? What is going to be happening with that?

What's your take on that? You know, there were a couple of things that 

they, um, that, um, uh. Was suggested by, uh, Richard at, uh, Richard 

Hayne at the last, um, uh, the last shareholders meeting, um, demonstrating

that he's listening and that, you know, they're, they're, they're moving, they,

they're talking about, um, a, um, a, a a, rethinking the product, um, which.

It's double edged because, uh, they're, they're, they're basically trying to 

move with the demographic. Um, and sometimes you can, you can lose, lose

sight of, you know, of, of, of who you are. They're also talking about 

efficiencies. They're definitely closing some stores, which is probably a good

idea. And I think that that is, that, that's just something that we will 

continue to see.

Just because in, uh, uh, in a world of omnichannel or like we like to call it 

unified commerce, the store is behaving differently. You don't need as many 

of them because where you buy is not necessarily, uh, or how you buy is not

necessarily gonna be at that store, but that store has to be. A showcase, it 

has to be a, uh, an experience and it has to be a point of brand engagement.

And I think that, uh, we'll probably see a streamlined urban, probably a new

mix. And let me be the first to tell you on your podcast that as of January 

1st, 2025, the betas have arrived. It is no longer.

Believe it. What? Uh, yes. Uh, whoever the chief demographers are, uh, in, 

in all of this storytelling, uh, apparently, uh, the uh, uh, alphas. Our, uh, as a

a, a born before January of 2025, and after that comes the beta. That's so 

scary. I didn't even think about that. But you're right that, that's right. 

You're, I am talking about the alphas and you're talking about the betas 

already.

Well, I'm not talking about 'em too much, but yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. 

Go. I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. You go ahead. No, I said it's 

interesting because, um, it isn't real clear. Uh, as to, you know, typically we 

think of a generations being 20 years. And generally speaking, the, uh, you 

know, the, the, the, the, the movement from the Boomer to the excerpt to, 

uh, you know, to, uh, gen y millennial to the, they're, they've more been in 

the area of kind of 15 to 18 years.

Right. And then, and then you have the cusp, right? And, and yeah. And 

that's what we, you know, there's no definitive line. There's just, you know. 

Kind of. Yeah, I agree with that. And I'm always sad because my generation,

I'm a Gen Xer, it's like we don't exist to anybody, no one's studied us, no one

cared, whatever.

But I'm okay with that. Anyway, before we leave, I, if you don't mind, 'cause 

I know you won't plug yourself, but I'm gonna plug you. Okay. You wrote a 

fantastic article and it's coming out in the report and I recommend everyone

read the article 'cause it's a great. Um, dive into Urban Outfitters and what 

they're kind of, what the, what's happened in the past and present for them.

So.

Absolutely, and thank our listeners. Please keep listening to us. If you have 

any feedback for us, you can find us on the robin report.com. Under contact 

us. Thanks so much. Thank you for listening to Retail Unwrapped. We'll be 

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